Furher to my feelingthat the Swiss chap who is doing the Council of Europe's investigation in the CIA prisons comes this piece from Bloggerheads. Quoting a Swiss newsppaer's reciept of leaked fax from the Egyptian Foriegn Minister to his Ambassador in LOndon (in glorious machine translation) "the message experienced from own sources that actually 23 Iraqi and Afghan citizens on the base Mihail Kogalniceanu in the proximity (Romanian; Anm. D Talk. ) City Constanza at the black sea were cross-examined. There are similar centercenter centers in the Ukraine, in the Kosovo, in Macedonia and Bulgaria". Ok.
So in these transit camps itis very possible that omngoing invstigations, or cross examinations took place.
But to provide the headline, "US torture camps in Europe: the proof!", does rather stretch the evidence. That the US has transit camps, there is no denial. But my dears "Torture camps the Proof" is pushing it a bit far don't you think?
There again who I am I to blame them, sfter all they are just following up the headline on the Auistrailian ABC Radio, "Swiss paper claims proof of secret US torture camps".
Still no evidence of torture guys.
Friday, January 13, 2006
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6 comments:
Why are stopovers needed?
Well, presumably we're not flying these guys to secret and exotic locales just question them within the strict confines of U.S. civil law. The very existence of this program indicates that sterner methods of interrogation are being used.
That said, I don't have a problem with applying some level of coercion to terrorists. These folks are simply not going to rat out their buddies and compromise their operations for a reduced sentence or better treatment. If we had Zawahiri in custody, would I give the CIA permission to use the techniques Niks disapproves of to get more information? Yes, I would. It would save lives.
Anyway, I suspect that the EU governments are culpable in this whole business as well since they're probably getting "tainted" intel from the CIA. So don't expect this Swiss guy to actually find proof of much. The whole thing will be swept under the carpet and the nastiness is now taking place in North Africa.
You remind me of those guys who still believe that Saddam Hussein has WMD, and who still DON'T believe that C02 causes global warming or that smoking causes cancer!
Jesus wept; are you sure that you weren't trolling The Sharpener the other day?
You show me conclusive proof - not trends - that CO2 does cause global warming. Show me a cancer and prove to me that it was caused by smoking. You have a look at what was ending up in Dutch scrap-metal merchants as we were invading Iraq and prove that the Scud missiles which turned up there didn't come from Iraq.
Elaib: yes, as usual Manic is letting his hobbyhorses run away with him. There's a reason that I don't link to him any more.
DK
Aunty Marianne, I'm guessing that stopovers are needed because planes still cannot fly all the way around the world without refuelling...
DK
Niks,
Let me address your points one by one.
First, "Torture doesn't work". Well, that may be your opinion, but MI6 begs to differ - hence their interest in the Uzbek "torture" intel. Of course you can't rely on anything somebody says under duress, but you can't rely on anything an AQ member says anyway. Whether the information is given freely of not, it will hav to be back-checked against known facts and analyzed critically. The point is, information given freely is not necessarily more reliable than information given under duress.
Second, I can see that you're skeptical about the intentions of the U.S. government. You may want to extend that skepticism to terrorists like Ibn Al-libi.
Third, liberal feel-good measures like the McCain amemdment will actually increase the number of renditions and the suffering of the terrorists themselves. If the CIA or MI6 can't legally lay a finger on a terrorist, they will find someone who can. A standard of interrogation that allows for a reasonable amount of coercion in certain circumstances will make rendition to your Uzbek bottle-rapists unneccessary.
Finally, if society decides that it would be better to suffer a few extra suicide bombs than touch a hair on Zawahiri's head, then so be it. Let's at least be honest enough to admit that there's a human cost to the moral grandstanding. But Niks, so far you haven't convinced society: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320/
1) Devil's Kitchen - that wasn't an innocent question. If it was about refuelling, why would the planes not just refuel and continue. Why have an internment facility.
2) "Ibn Al Libi" - Son of Alibi? Come on.
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